逐夢者The Dreamers

丹麥性變態大師談他的憂鬱症、伊娃葛林不想露的驚人內幕、以及他懷疑伯格曼會被神懲罰下地獄。

原文還找的到嗎？連結

What does it take to be hailed the bad boy of Danish cinema? Among other feats, Lars von Trier co-signed the Dogme 95 manifesto, forcing regimented rules upon filmmakers in a cry for anti-blockbuster honesty. His own entry, "The Idiots," pissed people off for featuring able-bodied adults pretending to find their "inner spazz." He began two trilogies he has no intention of finishing (though one of the main actors from "The Kingdom" died after Part II), and forced aging mentor Jørgen Leth to remake his own short film with multiple sets of no-win restrictions in the experimental doc "The Five Obstructions."

要怎麼數算丹麥電影壞痞子的豐功偉業呢？拉斯馮提爾合簽了大名鼎鼎的逗馬95條約，自我要求、誠實反對好萊塢商業片。他自己的逗馬作品《白痴》讓觀眾大怒：好手好腳年輕人裝智障「找自己」，成何體統！拍攝兩個他沒有打算完成的三部曲（影集《天堂醫院》其中一位主要演員在趴兔時掛了。）；強迫年高德邵心靈導師Jørgen Leth在實驗紀錄片《五道難題》重拍那毫無勝算準則的短片（還要求多重場景！）。

More notoriously, von Trier has plucked amazing performances out of actresses who don't seem to want to work with him again, including Nicole Kidman (who blamed scheduling problems for why she couldn't reprise her lead role in "Dogville" in the sequel "Manderlay") and "Dancer in the Dark" star Björk, who once referred to von Trier's working methods as "emotional pornography." And on and on you can trace the mischievous milestones of an eclectic and challenging career that dabbles in meta-apocalypses (1983's "Epidemic"), realist dramatic epics (1996's "Breaking the Waves") and avant-garde comedies (2006's "The Boss of It All").

最惡名昭彰的，大概就是拉斯總能讓女演員發揮演技極限、大受好評後發誓絕不再和他合作；包含妮可基嫚（說明因為行事曆問題無法演出《厄夜變奏曲》的續集《命運變奏曲》）以及《在黑暗中漫舞》的碧玉（她曾稱拉斯的電影技法為「情感剝削、宛如A片」）。持續探究下去，拉斯的惡行惡狀 - 那些不拘一格的挑釁功績，都寫在他的電影底片裡：後啟示錄（1983《瘟疫》）、現實主義戲劇史詩（1996《破浪而出》）、以及前衛喜劇（2006《老闆我最大》）。



看著小海報羅列，筆者不禁感動了起來...
小克倒是連續出現於《厄夜變奏曲》&《命運變奏曲》喲！

"Antichrist," however, proves the most controversial film yet in the 53-year-old provocateur's career. Made in a well-documented fit of depression, the disturbing psychodrama stars Willem Dafoe and a fearless Charlotte Gainsbourg (who won the Best Actress award at Cannes ) as an unnamed married couple who have just suffered the death of their child. Dafoe's character, a psychiatrist, suggests a trip to their remote cabin in the woods in order to treat her post-traumatic paralysis, and that's when all hell breaks loose. Mystical acorn showers, ghostly images between the trees and an animatronic fox snarling "Chaos reigns!" seep into the gorgeously gloomy compositions, and let's just say the images become so boldly graphic (sexually and violently, sometimes at the same time) that at least two audience members have so far passed out. Since von Trier doesn't fly, we spoke by Skype webcam, which allowed us to talk about his shamanic journeys, nipple negotiations and the t-shirt he was wearing that day.

然而，《反基督》卻寫下53歲痞子拉斯，猖狂電影生涯中最具爭議性的一章。拍攝時期充滿憂鬱情緒，這部令人坐立難安的精神心理劇由威廉達弗（also in《命運變奏曲》）和無懼的夏綠蒂（坎城影后）主演；這對無名的夫妻因痛失愛子而烏雲籠罩。達弗的角色，一位精神科醫生，建議老婆一起到森林偏僻小木屋養病，治療她因失去兒子引發的精神失常。亞當夏娃的故事就此陰森展開：神奇的橡樹種子雨、樹林間的昏黯魅影、以及狐狸低吟「渾沌統治！」，滲入模糊不清的狀態（但那是多麼的美！）；讓我們讚歎本片夢幻的攝影技術吧：大膽囂張的影像處理（性與暴力一起來）至少讓兩個觀眾在觀影時昏厥。既然拉斯不會飛（？），我們用視訊連線（！），談談壞小子自身的薩滿教經驗，露點談判以及他當天穿的T恤。

I think it's only polite to ask, "How are you feeling today?"
我要禮貌的問一下，「您今天感覺如何？」

I'm feeling better. I don't really want to admit it, but I am.
好些了。雖然我很不想承認。

Is it uncomfortable to be continually discussing your mental health with journalists?

和死纏爛打記者持續討論您的心理精神問題，會不蘇胡嗎？

No, it's a fact for me, and it has a lot to do with what you're doing... At an early point, I decided that I should talk about my anxieties because it's much easier. So I'm fine about it, but I think the readers must've reached the limit now of knowing about my mental problems. [laughs] 
普普啦，事實勝於雄辯，這和我的經驗息息相關......治療初期，我決定表達我的焦慮，這對我來說較容易。拉斯對這類問題百毒不侵，但我想讀者對我的心理問題已到達認知的極限了吧［哈哈］。

You've demonstrated a puckish sense of humor in your other projects, but this film feels so grave. Would it be wrong to say this is the most sincere film you've made yet? 
您曾在其他的作品裡展現拉斯式幽默，但這部電影好灰暗喏。我可以說，這是您拍過最真誠的電影嗎？

Yeah, I would say that it's the one film that I tried not to control too much. Maybe some of the humor comes in the second time you write a script. I tried to write it fast, and I hadn't made an effort to not make it symbolic and to not make it too logical, so it's more of a mess than the other films I did, but I think it was somewhat intentional.
亞。我會說，這次我不想控制太多。也許有些幽默會在第二次改寫時迸發。我寫劇本講求速度，不求象徵或太抽象的概念（！）；《反基督》成渾沌狀態，是我故意的啦！（還用你說！）

"Antichrist" has many champions, but some people booed after a screening in Cannes . Do you take any satisfaction that at least they didn't have a middling response?
《反基督》收集了不少驚世駭俗的頭銜，但有人在坎城首映後噓你捏！大家總是不給你的電影中庸評價：不是愛的過火就是恨之入骨，這樣你很爽嗎？

You're absolutely right. I have some kind of strange fascination about being yelled at, yes. [laughs]
無庸置疑。拉斯尬意這種被大吼的感覺。像是勾魂迷幻藥［怪叔叔大笑數聲］。



Could you discuss the relationship in your writing between this more naturalistic story of a grieving couple, and the fever-dream imagery haunting the second half of the film?
可否談談創作中這對悲慟夫妻自然主義的故事、和電影後半段如被著火夢境糾纏般的意象的關係？

A lot of the images come earlier in your life. I made something we call shamanic journeys, where you travel to this parallel world on the drumbeat, and then bring something home. These animals, and a lot of the images from the film, were inspired by this.
許多電影意象來自我的早期生命經驗。我用了一種「薩滿教之旅」的儀式來呈現：你可以在鼓聲中行走到世界的平行盡頭，然後帶些什麼回來。電影裡的動物們、以及許多的象徵圖象，都被薩滿教影響。

Did one of the "Three Beggars" in the film -- the fox, the deer, or the crow -- represent you on your journeys?
電影裡「三個乞丐」的其中之一：狐狸、鹿或烏鴉，是否代表了你自己的心路歷程？

No, no, no. In English, I think it's called an otter. I always thought they were very playful and beautiful animals. You have this power animal that you contact, and that you use.
大錯特錯。我想在英文裡，牠是水獺（？）。我一直都覺得牠們是有趣和美麗的生物（！）。你可以在電影裡運用這種有神祕力量的動物，和牠們接觸。

What kind of research went into the psychology of the film, in both Willem's unorthodox treatment and Charlotte 's behavior?
關於威廉的怪力亂神心理治療和夏綠蒂的瘋狂行徑，你做了什麼心理學研究阿？

I didn't really have to do much research because the anxiety is something I've fortunately felt too much of. The form of therapy that he's doing -- in a very wrong way, of course -- is called cognitive therapy, which I've been undergoing for almost three years.
我是世界上最棒的導演耶！還需要做什麼研究！拉斯最懂焦慮心情。威廉做的那些－當然是胡搞瞎搞－是認知治療喔！這三年來我都在做這種諮商。

Has it helped?
有效否？

[laughs] I've tried so many things. Yes, I think it's helping, but it's not a wonder drug. It's the best thing you can do right now.
［呵］拉斯嘗過百草。是的，我覺得有效，但它不是百憂解。卻是現階段最好的治療辦法了。



Speaking of therapy, you've said this was not a fun filmmaking process for you. What, specifically, were the most taxing parts?
既然談到治療，你說過這是個不愉快的拍片經驗。具體來說，什麼部份最令人難以忍受？

I think the shooting was the problem. I had to drink a lot of wine every day to survive it. When you don't feel well, and especially if it has to do with depression, then what you really want to do is go to bed and stay there for a year. That is, of course, not possible when you have to shoot. It was a very tiresome shoot, but not concerning the actors. They were fantastic. They helped me very much.
我想光是拍攝期就頗令人頭痛。我必須天天喝的酩酊大醉才能生存。當你感到不適，而且這種感覺還和憂鬱症有關，你會只想呆在床上一整年－這怎麼可能呢？拉斯還要拍片嚇唬好萊塢。拍片過程很累人，但我的演員們很棒。他們幫了我很多忙。

Besides supportive people, what kept you going?
除了支持你的人，還有什麼支撐你偊偊獨行電影路？

The treatment for depression is that you should have a very regular day, that you should write down beforehand what you're going to do that day, and the more regularity you have, the better. It works. In that sense, film work is very good because you have to be there at this time, you drink your coffee, and then you do this, this, this. So it worked like a treatment.
憂鬱症的療程之一是必須有規律的生活，還要事先寫下你今天的必辦事項：越規律；好的越快。這真的有效。照這種標準來看，電影工作還蠻合適的。每天到片場，喝咖啡，跟著拍攝流程走。宛如真正的心理治療。

I read that you set limitations about where the camera can and can't go. What draws you to setting such inflexible rules for yourself, from Dogme 95 to the autopiloted camera of "The Boss of It All"?
我之前讀過相關報導，你會特別限制攝影機的運鏡方位。為何替自己設下如此不彈性的規矩，從嚴謹實驗性的逗馬95到自嘲性質的《老闆我最大》？

I must say, this time, I did not control that aspect as much as I'd wanted to. The films I did before, I handled the camera myself, and I was not able to [on “Antichrist”] because of this mental stupidness. I was shaking too much for the camera. I had to let [director of photography Anthony Dod Mantle] take the camera on the shoulder.
我必須要說，現在的我，不再像以前那樣想控制這種東西了。拉斯以前拍電影，都是親自掌鏡，但這次在《反基督》裡，因為精神問題，我不能這樣做了。我手會抖。我必須讓別人（攝影指導Anthony Dod Mantle）掌鏡。

Charlotte Gainsbourg embodies her role so audaciously that I can't even imagine another actress in the part, but I'm still curious why your original choice, Eva Green, didn't work out?
夏綠蒂如此完美的嵌入這個角色，我不敢想像其他演員代替她演出此角（我想到很多耶！）；但我仍對你的最初選擇感到好奇：伊娃綠小甜心，怎麼會談不攏呢？

She would've worked out, but her agents were very much against the porn aspect of the film, and we were into strange negotiations where I had to say how many times I wanted to see a nipple. At a certain point, I found out that's not the way I can work. Then Charlotte came and was, as you said, a gift for the film.
伊娃綠會是最迷人的選擇，但她的經紀人徹底反對這部電影的色情成分（！），我們甚至進入了詭異的協商，我在談判桌重申多次：我要看見奶頭！到了某個階段，我發現這種合作方式讓我無法創作。然後夏綠蒂加入，天上掉下來的禮物。



這兩位法國妞的型差了十萬八千里，而伊娃綠肯定會比夏綠蒂更適合這個角色；因為我看到夏綠蒂在電影裡爆走時，內心僅害羞的覺得：好可愛好純真阿！
另外，伊娃竟然會在意露點這件事！《巴黎初體驗》是露假的嗎？伊娃想轉型嗎？但她最近也沒有比較少露阿！（困惑）

No other film could play at Cannes , the New York Film Festival, and down in Austin , TX for Fantastic Fest, a genre-based festival where young, caffeinated and/or drunk audiences lapped up the violence as if it were "Hostel" or "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre." Is that strange to you?
沒有電影能同時在坎城、紐約影展、直下到奧斯汀德州的科幻影展上映，這類影展吸引特別偏好的觀眾：年輕、咖啡因中毒和／或酒癮很大的傢伙，被暴力吸引進戲院；好像本片是《恐怖旅舍》或《德州電鋸殺人狂》。這對你來說很怪嗎？

No, that I find very sympathetic. It's fun, yeah. I've been young also, and I studied film at the university, and the joyful entrance to film is a very important one.
不。我對這些傢伙深表同情。這樣是很好玩啦。我也年輕過，大學時期修習電影，藉由樂趣進入電影世界是很重要的。

Were you told about the "Chaos Reigns" T-shirts that were made during Fantastic Fest?
你知道科幻影展有賣＂渾沌統治＂的T恤嗎？

No, I was not. But that's a good idea because chaos really works. It rules. [laughs]
沒耶。但這真是個好主意，因為渾沌是統治必需品，用過的都說好！［呵哈］

If you tell me your T-shirt size, I'll see if I can get you one.
如果你告訴我你的T恤尺寸，我會想辦法弄一件給你。

Yeah, but you can see this T-shirt that I have on now is too small. I should actually have a bigger T-shirt. I don't know why everybody thinks I'm very, very small. This T-shirt I have now is Ingmar Bergman on a cloud. It was given to me a week ago. I'm not really sure he is on a cloud. I think maybe he went straight to hell, but that we don't know. [laughs]
好阿，我現在穿的這件太小了。我應該要穿大一號。不知為何大家都覺得拉斯身材矮小，歧視我是丹麥人嗎！這件英格瑪柏格曼在雲端露齒而笑的短T，是我一週前收到的禮物。大概是想提醒我不要再拍電影嚇人。但我不知道欸，伯格曼真的會上天堂嗎？我想他老人家可能會直接下地獄，但這就是心照不宣的秘密囉［ㄎㄎ］。



I'm guessing you don't shock easily. What do you consider perverse?
我想你好像不太容易被嚇到。對＂離經叛道＂這個詞做何感想？

Perverse? I don't know. You shouldn't do something to people that they don't like. You shouldn't be violent if that's not the game. "Perverse" to me rings fine, but to harm other people is not a good idea.
＂離經叛道＂？我不暸。己所不欲，勿施於人（！）。如果遊戲沒說，就不能玩的太粗野嘛。＂離經叛道＂對我來說還頗悅耳的，但傷害別人是不可取的。（拉斯竟然會在意他人感受？）

What makes you laugh lately, and where do you turn for escapism?
最近有什麼讓你發笑嗎？還有你什麼時候選擇逃避主義？

We have so many things going on these days in our government, so that really makes me laugh. I can't go into detail, but it's idiotic. Escapism is really working [for me]. I'm writing and working on some ideas now. When you're onto something, then it's so great that you don't have time to think about other things.
我們的政府阿！看那些傢伙手忙腳亂總令我心情愉快。我無法詳述，但實在愚蠢至極。拉斯現在選擇逃避主義，眼不見為淨。我現在正在爬梳一些新點子。當你致力於某事，就沒時間胡思亂想了。

You have kids, right? Are they allowed to see any of your films?
你有小孩，對不對？他們可以看你的電影嗎？

Yes, I have four. If they saw any of my films... the oldest girl did, but I'm not really sure how she felt about it. They'll be allowed to see them when they're about 50.
恩，我有四個小孩（大驚！）。如果他們看了我的任何一部電影......我的大女兒看過，但我不太確定她的感受如何。所以，他們要到五十歲才可以看。（筆者高二就被拉斯的電影染指了....五十歲...）